The auto companies should not be given bail out funds,either as loans or grants. Thousands of companies are in the same bind and there isn`t enought money in the world to bail out all of them. In the US they should take advantage of chapter 11 which would allow them to curtail the unions and restructure.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but didnt one of the “big three” , have such a huge pension deficeit, that it would take more than all of its projected profits to pay for it??? Perhaps the auto workers and their unions should take a good hard look at what their greed has created, and bail themselves out.

Nice sales pitch. Why can’t they make any money at it?
Also - claims at offering the most Hybrid or fuel efficient models are not the same a having the most sales of those models. There is no guarantee that people are going to buy electric vehicles and electricity is not free.
Same old company. Toyota and Honda are doing all the same things, still making money, and say they don’t need a hand out - is there any other comment necessary?

GM’s reply would be a lot more convincing if:
1. they had not recalled and deliberately destroyed their previously phenomenally successful electic car;
2. decided, with much hoopla, to continue building the Camaro in Canada;
3. focussed on making and selling monster SUVs and trucks during the past decade;
4. continued to pay failed executives obscene salaries and outrageous golden parachutes when they are deservedly downsized or fired.
I think that their sudden discovery of the merits of “small and fuel efficient” does NOT ring true.
(I have two Chevrolets)

It is good to see the other side of the coin. GM has a point. I know they are doing a lot to respond to the times, even if a bit late getting involved. Designing a completely new technology such as an electric car takes many years of testing to produce a quality product and they are certainly up to the challenge.

Having said that, I hope the bail-out has some protections for those of us funding it. When I heard the CAW’s response on the news last night, I was totally disgusted. Until the union realizes that they, too, are part of the problem, they will never become part of the solution.

Here’s a suggestion to the CAW: fight for a Profit Sharing Plan!!! Everybody will be AMAZED at the rapid turn-about of attitudes and hence the subsequent recovery of the North American car industry. Time for a paradigm shift and a real change that will benefit all.

The CAW must share some of the blame for this mess.

GM is so yesteryear. It has always operated on an economic model more fitting to the horse and buggy age: employ thousands too many workers, accede to outrageous wage demands and charge the largesse to the customer. With Japanese innovation capturing a greater market share, that doesn’t cut it any more. Besides, if Mr. Paterson’s plea is so compelling, capital should be knocking on his door, instead of the other way around. Let the industry go into bankruptcy and reorganize. Any other measure will only further distort markets that are already reeling under misguided government intervention.

GM has been destroying record levels of capital for the last 30 years. The unions aren’t the only hangers on…there are also thousands of dealerships (triple the number of Toyota dealerships) which GM would have to pay thousands of punitive penalties to close. You also have to consider 8 different brands with multiple models that compete with 2 brands each at Toyota & Honda. There is nothing new here. The company has talked about restructuring forever and it never happens. The only possibility that change will happen is if the company goes into Chapt. 11 which would mean no golden parachuts as well as the end of the jobs bank. Chances are that the Democrats will pony up funds for a temporary bailout until an even larger bailout can be concocted.

Unfortunately, if the Americans bail out GM, the Canadian government will likely also have to follow suit. Dalton will be leading the pack crying for Ontario’s share.

It isn’t just moral hazard but total fiscal imprudence to continue to support GM. When one considers what this money could do if spent on health care, it seems utterly reprehensible.

GM’s explanation deals with only 50% of the problems they created and now face. They made no mention of: (i) the inflexibility and inability to re-arrange operations and jobs along the various assembly lines … why did GM agree to these provisions in their negotiations with the unions over the past years? (ii) the very high cost of having given in to huge union demands for wages and benefits over those past years; (iii) the enormous consequential legacy costs involved in providing ongoing benefits to current employees and retirees; and (iv) a poorly regulated pension plan system that is incapable of dealing with the normal ups and downs in our economy and stock markets.

The situation that GM (and also Chrysler and Ford) now faces does not deserve a monetary infusion or bailout at this time along the lines it requests before it is required to deal with corrective problems. Giving it money now will only help for a few months, and the cash problem will then resurface again. The real solution is to put GM into bancruptcy protection now, and cause it to restructure its operating policies, financial position and ongoing liabilities, and its union contracts. Only after that is done should the Federal and Provincial governments consider providing any form of funding to GM and the other auto makers.

Talk about luck. GM was on the ropes before the current crisis came along and gave them an excuse to ask for taxpayer money. The CAW says they take no responsibility for the Big 3 mess and will share none of the pain. We should all remember that Toyota and Honda make cars in Canada, using Canadian workers and a majority of Canadian made parts and are asking for nothing. As a reward for being successful, their employees will have the honor of having their tax money used to reward their less than successful competition.

The problem with the auto industry is not the financial crisis. This has merely been a catalyst to bring to light some deep rooted problems with the industry. Giving the automakers money would perpetuate a way of doing business that disappeared for everyone else years ago.

The Detroit three have been in the throes of tranformation, death, reorganization, whatever you want to call it, for a long time. More than two years. Ford has been losing money for twice that. GM has been teetering for years. Chrysler has been in trouble several times before.

The problem we have today is not because of the credit crisis. It is because the detroit three forgot how to make cars.

The Japanese car makers have been winning market share for decades. Why? Because people wanted to buy a car that wouldn’t fall apart after 3 years. They wanted quality. They wanted reliability. So what did the detroit three do? They did everthing under the sun except make better cars.

And don’t fall for the scare tactics employed by the media and the automakers about how much the auto industry contributes to our economy. Do you think that some vacuous hole would be created if the big three disappeard? No way.

At the very least, the remaining automakers would have to take up the slack and manufacture more cars to make up for whatever demand exists out there. That means a whole bunch of former GM, Chrysler, and Ford employees would have good job prospects.

The blame for this is purely on the shoulders of the executives. Even the Unions have to accept some responsibility. Anyone with half a brain knew the auto industry in North America was under threat from increased competition. So what did those big union bigshots do with all their union dues? Nothing. Did they invest in retraining for their employees to help them transition out of an industry destined to shrink? No. Did they use the money to start a school for the auto industry? No. Did they encourage a new mentality more aligned with today’s global economy? No. Did they at least recognize the tremendous challenges that increased competition would bring to bear upon the companies that employed their members? No. Only when they were forced by the shear weight of physics, did they relent and make concessions last year with the big three during their negotiations.

The best quote I have read on the whole subject of the market meltdown came from an anonymous poster on another site. What he said could certainly apply to the auto industry. He remarked:

‘One cannot rebuild what has not first been destroyed’.

No Bailout for GM. At no time, appreciating at one time they ‘had’ the market did they ever focus on quality of product. You can never bailout “poor” management with tax payer dollars. Let market forces dictate their fate! GM & The Unions”take, take attitude” has come full circle. NO BAILOUT FOR GM

My opinion has not changed! NO cash for the CAW & the BIG Three! As we learn more about the crisis we realize that the big problem is CAW contracts but even bigger are the pension payouts which are many times higer than the rest of us working peons. Although my opinion is no bailout, it looks like the govt will do so anyway, Then the first string attached should be a 50% reduction in wages and benifits (including pensions) and not one red cent paid untill that is agreed to by the CAW. Next all management should recieve a salary of $1.00 / month for 2 years. (until they can prove they deserve to run any company.)

General Motors and the other US based manufacturers have become bloated and ponderous as compared to their formative days in the twenties and as compared to their competition especially from Asia. They should not and will not go out of businees entirerly but they do need to drastically reduce their size, their overhead, their direct expenses and their product development cycle. Dropping whole product lines, closing plants, eliminating whole departments and renogiating the CAW/UAW contract are involved. These are radical changes and can best be accomplished after declaring bankruptcy. Let events take their course.

There should be no bailout without a change of top level management at the Big Three AND significant concessions by the CAW. It is ludicrous for CAW to deny any responsibility for this crisis. Their outrageous salaries and benefits, extorted from Big Three senior management executives who have never had the guts to call the union bluff, make them just as guilty as bad management in the companies. The CAW should be asked to explain the great success of the Japanese car makers, who build better cars in North America than the Big Three and are not in need of handouts from the taxpayer.

I’m not impressed by Mr. Paterson’s comments. This seems to be a case of “too little, too late.” Why is it only in the last two years that GM has changed direction? Where was the highly compensated brain trust during the last decade when the sales of North American cars were clearly in decline? He states “you could now close down Canada’s entire auto production and there would still be oversupply in today’s US market.” In the free market, that’s what happens when you build cars people don’t want. It’s likely those cars would not have sold anyway, regardless of the world economic situation. Now their hands are outstretched and the taxpayer (that is to say, you and me) is expected to make good on years of poor judgment.
Unfortunately, a bail-out of the Canadian auto industry is inevitable. While I would dearly love to see market forces put an end to the painful demise of this dinosaur, the U.S. administration will not allow it, and the Canadian government will have no choice but to follow in kind.
However, simply because an infusion of cash is forthcoming, there is no reason it should be provided without strict conditions. One of those should be to roll back union salaries and benefits to a realistic, market driven (i.e. Japanese) level. Another should be to re-visit the legacy benefits paid to former employees. And, since they are the ultimate source of the auto industry’s problems, the executives and upper management should be held to task. To start, an immediate cancellation of salary and bonuses, and compensation directly tied to corporate profitability. Strict? Perhaps. But I feel perfectly justified making these demands. After all. It’s my money that is to be given to them. The alternative? Put the beast out of its misery and let the scandalously overpaid union workers and executives swim with the sharks – like the rest of us.

Throw money at them? Quebec tried that already,
GM took the money and pulled out anyway.
That the corporate welfare bums will willingly change their ways is wishful thinking.

The GM reply did not address what advantage there would be to the average taxpayer to a bailout of GM. If these companies cannot stand on their own merits and stand by their products, there should not ever be any taxpayer bailout. It would be like throwing good money after bad.

I knew in 2001 that I should bail out of my SUV before no one wanted to buy my gas guzzler, and I’m just an average Jane. How come GM didn’t know that times had changed. The unions attitude stunned me. If the union won’t play ball and management can’t think of a way to make fiscal policy work let government effect a takeover that cancels all contracts, for labor, management and supply companies, or let the companies fail. Someone will buy out the remains and start all over again. I imagine that supply companies are as responsible as employees (unions) and management for overall greed in the industry. I say their excuses are too late. perhaps loan them money IF consessions are given on all sides.
If GM is as good as they say they are, why haven’t their promotions outpaced sales of cars from the orient? How come I didn’t know they were so all-fired good? Answer - someone was asleep at the switch.

I certainly agree with all here who hold GM’s unionized employees responsible in part for the cash burning debacle that GM finds itself in. The company has been losing money for years — billions.

It’s been clear for some time that GM needs a new chairman, a new board, and a new team of managers, or rather competent, effective leaders. Is that likely to happen anytime soon? Rather than wait to find out, we picked up our new Honda Odyssey last night.

GM spends $17 million a year on Viagra and other lifestyle drugs and the CAW says they will not make any concessions.

I love the optics of the kid at the 7/11 having to give up part of his pay cheque so the auto worker who makes five times his wage gets free Viagra.

How about another verse for the old union song Solidarity Forever?
“Solidarity Forever,
The Viagra makes us strong!”?

These guys have lost all touch with reality.

NO bailout for any of the Big three auto makers. i didn’t hear one word from GMs response that talked about what they are going to do to become more competitive ie cost effective. I have heard outrageous claims about how costly the salaries and, even moreso, the many related pensions are. I am told that there is a ratio of something like one GM employee supporting up to 3 pensions whereas in most industries there is an inverse where there is a number like 10 employees supporting 1 pension. I would be curious to know how this situation developed. If the free market can support this kind of overhead then fine. but it appears they can’t and they should not be given any of my money to be bailed out.

North American consumers have paid excessive money to buy vehicles for years, so that management and the CAW could enjoy unrealistic benefits.Seems nuts to me , that we should now be asked to give more to maintain status quo, AND the risk of losing whatever we give them.
I would agree to offer help if; a credible plan of success and repayment was in place; the $ had the most secure position in case of failure ,
It is not necessary , but it would seem to be a decent gesture , if the 2 culprits that caused the problem, took some responsibilty, and offered some real concessions , to help ensure success.

GM is doing now what it should have done 20 years ago. If their product line is so spectacular they will survive wthout govt. help. The first thing they should do is cut all of their factory workers salaries in half and fire all of the overpaid greedy executives who caused this mess as a result of their own short sited, self centered goals.

When someone is in trouble, finger pointing by is the easiest form of criticism. It has taken many years of mismanagement by many individuals within GM and its many support industries to reach its present position. It has been a travesty of excesses. As pointed out by several others, most of the Asian automobile manufacturers are managing to survive this financial correction. GM has stated that it sells more product than several of the others combined and I do not doubt that given the amount of GM product on the street every day. So, where did the money go? As a small business owner and operator for many years throughout financial downturns or corrections, you adjust to survive. Simplier for me than them, but they employ many people that are a whole lot smarter than me. Yet they claim that they are in trouble. This financial correction did not happen overnight, it has been approaching for quite some time. Allowing large manufacturers to fail financially is costly to the economy and to the lives and self esteem of their employees. The well being of the employees shuold always be the number #1 focus of large employers and this has not been the case for GM and many others. Solutions are not going to be simple nor easy and not initially acceptable to many, however there has to be solutions. As for a bail out with taxpayers money, that should only happen as a last resort and a surrender of ownership control. The current ownership has demonstrated their inability to manage a very successful business. Government shuold have no say in the controlling aspect because of its track record of mismanagement. Any bail out funded by the taxpayers must be paid back to the taxpayers. The option of allowing bankruptcy protection is not bad as it should allow GM to reorganize their affairs and move forward. This too should require ownership sacrifice to be returned once the company is on solid footing and can demonstrate responsible management. The unions bosses also need a wake up call and start putting the concerns of both the workers and the employer before their own. The era of “greed” and “me first” are over and must stay as such in a balanced approach forward. As Canadians, there is too much at stake to allow companies like this to fail in the wake of years of excellent profits. As management, there are many times that you must so “no” in order to survive. It shows leadership, courage, focus and the ability to lead. GM have done may fine things throughout the years, unfortunately, prudent money management does not appear to have been one of them. We need this industry.

Before throwing more good money after the big 3 I say the C.A.W. should agree to the following:

1: A rollback of wages to the level of wages paid at Toyota and Honda. 2: A no-strike guarantee until all government loans are fully paid back, with interest. 3: Accept outsourcing. 4. That new employees will start at a lower rate of pay than employees with many years of seniority. It should be made very clear that these are not suggestions, but non-negotiable conditions before talks with the big 3 can even start. If the autoworkers are not interested in saving their jobs, why should the taxpayers be? We have already advanced 782 million over the past 5 years. Enough is enough.

NO MORE CORPORATE WELFARE!! (Isn’ that what the NDP called it?)

I cannot be conned by PR BS. The GM changes are too late .Where were
they when they knew their competition was lower cost and better quality.
I did not hear that Honda and Toyoto were asking for tax payer bail outs!!!
Douglas Babcook

In any and all circumstances we need to bail out individuals, the actual people that buy homes and products, they are the ones that drive economic activity through consumption and spending. Companies will come and go, it is up to their managers (ie. CEOs, etc.) to make sure they are diligently managed so as to ensure their viability and survival. For too long the so called economic fundamentals have been ignored by the US and we are all paying a bruising price, besides we are only 30 million in this country, if we do not export we are going to hurt. Lets face the hard facts, Canada is primarily a resource based economy, the question becomes how do we diversify our economy so as to create wealth and opportunity ? Lets not get lost and take our eye off the ball, true that auto manufacturing is a big part it only represents southern Ontario what about the rest of the country ? It is good and fine to recognize the symptoms of an ailing economy, the more difficult part is proper diagnosis followed by a treatment and recovery plan that fits the bill. It is important to remember that within today’s global markets we are competing with economies that are not bound by social, environmental, etc. standards that are as stringent and costly as our own. For example our hourly minimum wage rates are much higher than what some individuals earn in a day in many other countries. The problems we face are far more reaching than most of us are willing to admit, living in denial is no different than credit, it always comes back to bite you where it hurts. What is needed in these times is not only a steady hand but also some creative thinking as to how we can restructure our economy so it can remain competitve and viable in the long run.

Corporate Welfare, except when seventy dollar an hour workers are going to lose jobs, then its called “responsible government” and Harper is so limp wristed he’ll give in to these old school welfare beggars, just watch.
The government has spent the EI surplus that could have been used to help workers and their employers at a time like this, oh well, the Canadian taxpayer is ’so stupid’ they’ll re-elect us anyway.
GM should go up in smoke as any company or business that can not manage itself competently.
RIP GM and Ford and Chrstler, you were nothing but a pain, even while you were “productive”..

This is an excerpt from a Sept 2006 NCC letter from Colin Brown under the heading WORKING CLASS POLITICS. At that time Buzz Hargrove - Union Boss for the CAW released his polical manifesto entitled “In the Eye of the Storm” on how the CAW planed to remake Canadian Politics.
“WE WANT A SOCIETY IN WHICH WORKING PEOPLE CAN HAVE TRUE HOPE, SECURITY AND EQUALITY… TO ACCOMPLISH THIS, WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO THOROUGHLY REGUALTE PRIVATE BUSINESS; MANAGE EMPLOYMENT, INVESTMENT, AND TRADE; EXPAND PUBLIC OWNERSHIP AND NON-PROFIT ENTERPRISE; AND RUN THE ECONOMY IN THE INTERESTS OF THE WORKING PEOPLE. IT WE SUCCEED, WE WILL HAVE FUNDEMENTALLY TRANSFORMED OUR ECOMMY AND SOCIETY, REPLACING CAPITALISM WITH SOCIALISM.”
Buzz Hargrove seen the writing on ghe wall. He knew that the auto industry would not be able to sustain the exorbitant wage demands much longer, so he baled.

We will set new precedents as a democracy if we continue with bailouts, this is all starting to smell like communism (state run enterprises). Given the current economic realities in this new world it would seem China has beaten us all at our own game, communist government with a capitalist economy. On top of this no elections, so in Canada’s case that would mean 300 million dollars saved at the very least every four years if we could elect a majority government. 300+300+300+ all the other monies that get thrown to waste by mismanagement of government funds by our beloved politicians. We are all so busy playing political games that we have lost sight of what really needs fixing, everything top to bottom. We need to stop rewarding bad performance including the manipulation of financial markets by thieves in suits, starting with our very own political leaders, what a sham !

S O C I A L I S M!

the next best thing to

C O M M U N I S M